casnica=discriminata?!?
Raspunsuri - Pagina 39
conchita spune:
quote:
Originally posted by blackpanterro
De aia zic eu ca nu ma intereseaza discutia casnica vs "carierista" :) pt ca diferentele intre familii sunt enorme.Ce functioneaza intr-o familie nu functioneaza si in alta.De aceea discutiile astea sunt cam pointless.
scurt si la obiect.
totusi, eu nu le gasesc pointless, sunt experiente din care putem invata, daca avem destula deschidere si bunavointa. nu e neaparat nevoie sa repetam greselile altora, putem invata ceva si din discutii, macar cum sa le evitam.
eu nu sunt in nici o barca, daca e sa ma pronunt la subiect. nu mi se pare catastrofal sa stai acasa si sa ai grija de copii (ce poate fi mai frumos?), dar nici crima si pedeapsa sa ai si-un job pe langa, eventual o cariera (implinirile profesionale nu sunt de lepadat). cum ar arata lumea daca toate femeile ar sta acasa? naspa, ca acum doua sute de ani, cu eforturile feminismului aruncate pe apa sambetei si cu femeia dependenta iarasi de barbat, redusa la identitatea de mama si sotie si-atat. dar daca toate femeile ar merge la munca? tot naspa, pentru ca asa arata socialismul, cu adultii focusati pe productie si cu copiii in grija statului prin crese si gradinite sau pe strazi cu cheia de gat.
intreaba lumea care e solutia. iar eu zic ca nici una, pentru ca nu exista vreo problema. chiar nu inteleg discutiile astea care pleaca din start de la pozitia "ceva vs. altceva". suntem diferite, avem asteptari diferite de la viata, nu seamana o situatie cu alta - dovada controversa cu menajul de o ora -, atunci de ce ar jindui cineva sa impuna atitudini uniformizatoare si aceleasi solutii pentru toata lumea?
frumusetea lumii sta tocmai in diversitate - si tot despre diversitate trebuie sa ne invatam si pruncii. cum putem sa ii invatam asta, daca noi gandim in termeni de alb si negru, de x vs y, de cine nu-i ca mine e impotriva mea si deci e naspa?
o dilema personala tot am, recunosc, si e legata de oamenii care nu au muncit niciodata in viata lor. mi-e greu sa inteleg cum ar putea sa-si educe copiii pentru o lume pe care nu o cunosc din interior, cum s-ar spune. dar probabil ca exista solutii si la situatia asta.
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Zero toleranta pentru lipsa de toleranta fata de un copil!
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mami de Sonia Marie (23 ianuarie 2007)
aschiutza spune:
Eu voi pune aici parerea uni scriitor american, cei impatimiti de SF au auzit sigur de el, Orson Scott Card. Scuze, e un pic cam lungutz textul, dar merita citit!
"So I asked them, weeks before the final, to prepare for me a report on their personal American experience. I asked them to think of artistic elements of culture, of course, but also the other things that they had in common with other Americans. Holiday customs. School experiences. Vacations. Shopping. Makeup. Clothing. Rites of passage.
It did not have to be an essay and I did not anticipate a narrative. What I asked for was a simple listing under the title "My American Culture."
Their responses were as individual as they were. Many of them were stream-of-consciousness -- one thought led to another and they wrote it down, often in sentence fragments.
Others wrote virtual memoirs of their childhood. Still others wrote essays explaining why they had not actually grown up in American culture, because for various reasons they either were or felt excluded from it.
Without meaning to, I had given them an approach to writing a de-personalized personal memoir.
When you assign people to write something entitled "My Life," they usually end up writing inanities, starting with events they don't remember (their birth, etc.) and rambling on and on, skipping everything personal and interesting so they can report on the official "highlights" of their lives.
This assignment gave them a different structure. They could skip their birth. They focused instead on what they had observed of the society around them. Since it needed no form, they could simply report more-or-less directly on what they saw through the lens of memory, looking not at themselves, but at others.
Self-consciousness was not erased -- indeed, some of the essays and narratives were almost painfully self-revelatory. But they didn't have to describe their own actions, which always leads to self-justification, and instead tried to recover how the world had looked to them as they were growing up.
You might try this yourself sometime. Of course, college students have little to report on but their childhood, being so recently graduated from it; adults nearer my own age might not have the same results -- might be distracted by memories of adult experiences. But then, that wouldn't be wrong, either!
As I read these fascinating papers, however, I began to synthesize something from the things they had written about. Student after student inadvertently told stories about decisions their parents had made.
A surprising number of them had been home schooled, and the experiences they described suggested parents who wanted to raise open-minded children who were not afraid of learning anything.
And an even more surprising number of them told of choices their parents had made which, as children, my students had simply taken for granted.
Of course their father had taken a relatively low-paying job and sacrificed any thought of a prominent career, in order that his kids could grow up in a small town.
Of course the parents had moved, not to a richer neighborhood, but to a more family-friendly one. Or from one town to another to get them away from negative influences.
Above all, many of these parents had chosen to accept a lower standard of living so that their children could grow up with at least one parent always in the home, and both parents easily accessible to their children all the time.
They had seen what they believed was good for their children, and they had done it, seemingly without regard for society's expectations.
In an American culture where women are looked down on if they have chosen to be "homemakers" instead of pursuing a career, an American culture where men are judged solely on how much income they command and how they display their monetary achievements, these parents had deliberately stepped out of the main stream and into paths that would give them less respect in the world -- but happier children.
Naturally, not all parents had made those choices and I'm not criticizing them in any way. They are Americans and it's natural that they would experience the pressures of social expectations and make the common choices.
But the number of them who had chosen for their children's sake rather than their own -- the number who had shaped their lives to give their children homes full of parental love and attention and presence instead of money and prestige -- forced me to stop and examine my own life.
What was I doing, driving three hours each way to teach at a university? I would leave on Tuesday morning and not be home till late Thursday night. I still have a newly teenaged daughter at home.
What message was I giving her, compared to the message these other parents had given their children?
Wasn't the message: "Being a professor and getting to do cool stuff at a university is so important to me that I will miss 3/7 of your remaining years at home"?
In other words, I was saying: "Other people's children are more important to me than you are."
I had thought that I was doing something quite noble and wonderful -- and, in the long view, it's hard to think of a nobler and more wonderful profession than teaching.
But most parents who absent themselves from their children's lives believe they're doing something noble and wonderful.
Until I read about what my students' parents had done for them, I couldn't see how I was not practicing what I preached.
Even as I told people in essays and speeches that the most important gift parents can give their children is their physical presence in a loving home, I was going off to another city three days a week -- and I couldn't even pretend I had to do it for money, because that isn't how I made my living.
I had made a commitment to the university that I would teach at a certain number of courses. But I had made a commitment to my child, simply by having her, and that commitment took precedence.
I loved teaching. I think I did it well, or at least well enough. I had the chance to work with some extraordinary young people and I enjoyed the process.
But I won't be there next fall. I won't be there next year. I might find some compromise -- one semester out of four -- but that remains to be seen.
In five years my last child at home will go off to college. Maybe then I can return to teaching in a serious way.
But while I have a child at home, my career is as a father; everything else is either a job or a hobby, and must be compromised as needed so I can fulfil that foremost task.
My place, insofar as it is possible, is at home. "
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Impotriva prostiei, zeii insisi lupta in zadar
Elise spune:
aschiutza,
foarte interesant articolul in general, dar partea asta mi se pare falsa:
quote:
the number of them who had chosen for their children's sake rather than their own -- the number who had shaped their lives to give their children homes full of parental love and attention and presence instead of money and prestige
Si "attention and presence" si "money and prestige" sint lucruri de care in fond beneficiaza un copil, ambele contribuie la educatia lui, nu poti sa spui ca daca alegi una o faci "for children's sake" si daca le alegi pe celelalte o faci in pofida interesului copilului.
Ideal este sa le imbini - proportiile sint stabilite de fiecare in parte, in functie de context, de copil, de stilul de educatie pe care vrea parintele sa-l aplice... etc
Elise & BBLisa
aschiutza spune:
Elise, mie nu mi-i se pare chiar asa de falsa. Eu nu imi aduc aminte citi bani de buzunar aveam si nici ce prestigiu avea familia in orasul in care am trait (atentie, oras mic!), dar imi aduc aminte ca ai mei veneau seara tirziu de la servici , rupti de oboseala, ca mama alerga iute in baie sau bucatarie sa faca treaba. Si noi stateam toata ziulica cu bunica si strabunica. Cind voi avea copii, ei nu vor avea sansa sa aiba nici macar acesti bunici...
Imi aduc aminte ca nu aveau timp sa vorbeasca prea mult cu noi, ca multe lucruri nu au aflat despre mine. E ciudat ce isi aduce aminte un copil si ce e pt el important. Iar uneori nu se pupa deloc cu ce credem noi ca adulti ca i-ar ajuta. Cu ce raminem din copilaria noastra? Nu cu acele momente de veselie familiala, cu acele momente cind familia sta linistita la o masa impreuna si sta de vorba? De acele mici ritualuri de familie?
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Impotriva prostiei, zeii insisi lupta in zadar
Elise spune:
Pai eu imi aduc aminte intr-adevar de dminetile cind era mama acasa ca de zile cu soare.
Chiar cu asta asociam: nu e o figura de stil.
Si imi amintesc ca atunci cind ramineam cu bunica-mea ploua tot timpul.
Probabil au fost doar citeva secvente care mi-au ramas in memorie, era imposibil sa ploua numai cind eram eu cu bunica-mea... 
insa amintirile mele din copilaria mica asa sint.
Deci iti dau dreptate intr-un fel: copilul e mult mai fericit cu cineva cu care se intelege mai bine, si de obicei aceea e mama.
INSA asta e doar un apect al formarii lui: eu am fetitza. O sa o cresc in stilul meu, bineinteles: vrem sa plecam diseara pina la munte si inapoi, plecam. Vrem sa luam cina pe plaja, nici o problema. Vrea un cal maro, trebuie sa stie ca il poate avea daca si-l doreste si se straduieste sa-l aiba.
Dar cum se obtin toate astea?
Cere mama bani de la tata?
Mama e decorativa si dragutza si tata e o entitate care apare periodic si plateste?
Sau mama are rolul ei in casa si calca, spala, spala vase, iar tata face restul - interactiunea cu lumea exterioara, afaceri si kestii plictisitoare si care pe noi fetele ne depasesc?
Vezi ca oricum ai da-o nu-i prea bine?
Elise & BBLisa
aschiutza spune:
Sorry Elise, da parerea din articol era a unui barbat. A unui barbat care constata ca el ca TATA trebuie sa petreaca mai mult timp cu copilul lui. Deci eu nu am vorbit numai de mama. Ci de amindoi parintii.
Sotul meu a fost crescut de o mama casnica. Si nu numai ca nu considera ca "femeia la cratita" dar ma sustine in ceea ce imi doresc sa fac si ma ajuta acasa. Asa ca nu trebe sa ai teama ca asa va gindi fetita ta.
Eu consider ca a fii casnica e la fel cu orice alta meserie. E tot munca. Si da aduce intr-un fel bani, chiar daca nu direct 8cind nu lucram aveam timp sa gatesc ieftin si bine, sa fac cumparaturi unde ii mai ieftin, etc, acu maninca la cantina si seara mai zvirlim de la frigider o pizza sau comandam). Din pacate exista intr-adevar dicriminare in Ro (si nu numai) a casnicelor. Sunt privite ca si cum si-ar rata vocatia si viatza, ca si cum numai serviciul ar da importanta unui om. Femeile casnice se simt rusinate de situatia lor si se grabesc de fiecare data sa adauge: da cum creste un pic copilul, gata ma duc la servici. E o problema de statut si de mentalitate si e o problema reala.
In plus eu nu am mentalitatea ca un om e numai definit prin munca pe care o produce si ca s-ar plictisii fara sa munceasca. Sunt oameni care isi folosesc timpul pt dezvolatrea lor personala sau a copiilor si care sunt perfect fericiti prin asta. Dar aici divaghez prea mult in filozofia despre mentalitatea actuala despre munca, mentalitate aparuta in ultimele secole (atentie, aici vorbesc din nou pt ambele sexe si nu numai despre femeie!).
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Impotriva prostiei, zeii insisi lupta in zadar
Elise spune:
aschiutza,
ok, stiu ca articolul e scris de un barbat, dar el se referea la "parinti".
Iar eu ma refeream la mine, ca parinte de fata.
Si n-am nici o problema cu persoanele casnice, motivul pentru care nu as vrea ca fata mea sa preia modelul asta este nesiguranzta ca se va trezi intr-o buna zi singura.
Si am vazut nspe cazuri, si cred ca si tu, de femei care o dau din coltz in coltz, cu un copil sau doi dupa ele, pentru ca nu stiu unde sa se duca si de ce sa se apuce si cum sa se descurce fara sotz- si s-au dedicat familiei, n-au facut nimic rau, dar viata nu e intotdeauna justa.
Asta e motivul pentru care as vrea sa imi invatz fata independenta.
Nu neaparat sa munceasca tot timpul, ci sa ajunga la nivelul de pregatire si experientza in care sa stie ca poate fi oricind pe picioarele ei, daca vrea. De la acel nivel, poate face absolut tot ce-i pofteste sufletelul.
Si nici sa astepte pina la 40 de ani sa aiba kupii nu-i solutia optima. Cred, totusi, ca e cel mai bine sa faci copii pe la 20 si ceva de ani. Da, mai ai examene, ai de invatat, ai de tras pentru un job bun, iti construiesti inca viitorul - dar daca numai asta faci, s-ar putea numai cu viitorul sa ramai.
E destul de greu sa le impaci pe toate.... probabil o situatie de compromis este cea mai buna pentru majoritatea familiilor.
Elise & BBLisa
speed spune:
dodo,am sa-mi sterg si eu mesajul,de dragul persoanelor implicate,daca vrei poti sa-ti stergi si tu raspunsul catre mine...
ruxij spune:
Am citit ce zicea nenea ala, dar viata nu e asa de simpla si nu e asa de usor sa faci si tu acolo niste choices ca si cand ar fi cel mai simplu lucru din lume. Trebuie sa ii asiguri un acoperis deasupra capului, o educatie, un viitor si suna ca si cand nu e big deal, dar de fapt mie mi se pare al dracului de greu de facut. Aici facultatile nu sunt gratis si nu e chiar asa de neglijat la ce scoala mergi si nici nu e tot aia daca stai intr-un trailer sau intr-o casa de oameni. Mai e important si in ce mediu creste copilul, daca nu iti permiti sa stai intr-un cartier bun, copilul va fi expus unor influente negative samd.Sunt convinsa ca el nu se ducea la servici pt. copiii altora cum zice, ci pentru a castiga niste bani cu ceea ce stie el sa faca, bani care veneau la familie si ii permit probabil fetei sa mearga la o scoala buna si sa se modeleze intr-un om de nadejde. E bine sa fi idealist, dar practica te cam omoara. Ce bine ar fi sa creasca banii in curte, sau cat castigam sa nu afecteze viata si dezvoltarea copiilor. Mai ales aici in America. Daca ma gandesc cum ar trai copilul meu, in ce cartier si la ce scoli ar merge daca am fi doar pe un salariu si anume al sotului, mi se face rau. Comparatia cu societatea comunista in care am trait noi e total nerelevanta pentru situatia de azi, cel putin pentru situatia din America.
Elise spune:
ruxij,
pai nenea ala spunea ca
quote:
I was going off to another city three days a week -- and I couldn't even pretend I had to do it for money, because that isn't how I made my living.
deci el considera situatia in care ai "livingu'" asigurat... si muncesti doar de hobby
Elise & BBLisa