Copilul captiv (7)

semiramida spune:

Tala
Cu organizarea marea mea problema e ca las totul pe ultima suta de metri, chiar daca am timp berechet sa fac o chestie eu tot in ultimul moment o fac. De cand ma stiu m-a enervat proverbul ala cu nu lasa pe maine ce poti face azi, eu las intotdeauna pe maine
Olympia, e normal sa nu fie hotarat la varsta asta. Dar macar la nivel declarativ, el viseaza la o anumita meserie?
Conchita La multi ani! (Scuze de intarziere)

ADRIANKA spune:

Olympia, sigur ca are sens ce spui, acum nici nu-mi dau seama exact ce e de fapt in capul meu, dar stiu sigur ca ma sabotez singura atunci cand ma apuca nebuniile. Are legatura si cu faptul ca nu imi prea place aici..Vara e foarte frumos ca turist, vii si pleci, dar ca sa stai...e un loc prea mic pentru mine. Mie imi place sa traiesc in orase mari, sa nu ma stie nimeni..(sau poate mai am inca nostalgia anilor petrecuti in Florenta, singura ca pasarea cerului).

In legatura cu povestea trista a copilasului din Larnaca....medicul, tatal lui, nu a plecat cu gand sa-l lase acolo toata ziua...a zis, bun, trec pana la spital, rezolv urgenta, nu stia ca e caz de operatie...in timpul asta cred ca nu si-a mai adus aminte ca a lasat bietul copilas in masina. Nu stiu, asta e explicatia pe care mi-o dau eu, ca altfel nu pot sa-mi imaginez...La autopsie au descoperit ca s-a sfarsit de atac de inima...offf

La capitolul organizare...probleme mari..Daca iese ceva din plan, ma invinuiesc si deja se porneste scandalul...de ex, plecam cu copilul undeva...si se intampla sa-i uit..sepcuta...ma apuca deja...in gandul meu zic, vai, nu sunt buna de nimic, nu sunt in stare sa duc o familie daca fac chestii atat de prostesti, cum am putut sa uit, il iau si pe al meu la rost ca normal ca am uitat, ca eu trebuie sa ma gandesc la toate si parca toata excursia e compromisa din cauza unui amanunt minor. Nu se intampla asa mereu, uneori ma surprind si eu cat de calma pot fi la faze asemanatoare. De aia nu ma inteleg, daca fazele se aseamana, de ce doar la unele ma crizez si mi se pare sfarsitul lumii?

In rest sunt pe locul I la dezordine. Casa poate sa fie luna, dar in dulapuri si sertare e dezastru. Si nu pot dom'le sa ma mobilizez sa mentin ordinea. Ca fac ordine uneori, dar in cateva zile iarasi zici ca a trecut tsunami...Si macar daca as fi impacata cu gandul...dar nu sunt si iarasi ma racaie pe creier ca nu sunt buna sa tin o familie, ma simt atat de neputincioasa in fata mea. Din afara, sunt apreciata pentru cum imi tin casa, dar numai eu vad adevaru'. Daca gasiti o metoda pentru a mentinea ordinea prin dulapuri sa imi ziceti, da?

olympia spune:

Mai, nu mai ziceti de ordine, ca io acu' chipurile limpezesc casa ca in we avem musafiri, luni e ziua fetei si o sarabatorim un pic inainte!
Si cum eu n-am destule dulapuri, nici pentru incaltaminte, nici pentru haine sau jucarii si daca le urc toate cate-mi stau in drum la pod(acolo-i marea depozitare), n-o sa mai am loc sa pasesc nici cat sa-mi intind rufele!
Semiramida, el a zis ca vrea profil socio-uman si apoi psihologie, ca intre timp a aflat ca la drept e enorm de mult de invatat. Nu e genul care sa se inhame la asa ceva, cauta mereu calea fara batai de cap, dar chiar mergand la minim efort are performante mari... L-am mai testat asa cam ce i-ar surade din meseriile mai liberale: jurnalism, a zis nu, parca l-ar tenta ce face taica-sau (artdirector la o agentie de publicitate), dar a abandonat inca din copilarie desenatul, se rezuma la calculator. A zis ca si regie i se pare fain, clar daca ar vrea asta n-are ce cauta la mate-info... De fapt pe latura umanista mie mi se pare mai ofertanta filologia cu engleza intensiv, profilul socio-uman e lejer si ar fi un avantaj doar daca ar face arte plastice de pilda, ca ar avea timp de lucru, dar pentru regie cred ca tot filologia i-ar folosi mai mult. Gata, numai imi bat capul il las pe el sa decida ordinea optiunilor...
Adrianka, cand te superi pe ceva minor ca o sepcuta, sigur nu ai tu un alt ghimpe nerezolvat din ziua aia si rabufnesti pe prima supapa la indemana?

Pene colorate... cate putin din toate!

album
gradina

flower-power spune:

Da nelia, ceea ce scrii tu, si conchita, si deus, lucru de care se plangea si felicia, legat de golul din jur il recunosc si la mine.
Se pare ca modul deficitar in care am invatat sa relationam, faptul ca re-inscenam inclusiv in relatiile de prietenie din viata de adult modelul de relationare care ne e cunoscut, nu ne duce acolo unde ne-am dori. Se pare chiar ca ne alegem in asa fel prietenii ca sa putem face asta. Si daca multa vreme m-am intrebat ce e in neregula cu cei din jur, acum stiu, mingea-i in terenul meu , rezolvarea de la mine va veni.

"The greatest irony of a childhood fraught with rejection and frustration
is that when the child grows up, he or she tends to recreate
similar rejecting and negative situations in his or her intimate adult
relationships, assuming the individual even manages to separate
from the family of origin. It is the most paradoxical result of a poor
developmental history. The recreation of the original family pattern
in “new” relationships is a way of remaining attached to the original
family in a new location, with new actors in old roles, and this
common psychological event is formally called “repetition compulsion.”
The obvious healthy solution to a painful childhood would
be to flee as far as possible from the pain and emptiness of the early years. Often, healthy solutions are out of the reach of adults who were reared in unloving families, because these families were not
supportive enough to allow their children to develop new and
healthy identities. Rather, these young adults are left with a vast
inner emptiness inhabited by the two opposite and unstable
wounded and hopeful selves (instead of a complex personality
structure), and their relationships with others are marred by both
the splitting and moral defenses.
.....................................................................
Sandy: Living Separately—but Alone
The following example of Sandy illustrates the next developmental
step upward from William. Sandy is typical of many adults from
developmentally unhelpful families who have been able leave the
actual family home, but are unable to prevent the severity of their
defenses from disrupting their adult friendships. In effect, Sandy
carried such intense and powerful images of her family in her head
that she reacted to others as if they were from her family of origin.
In psychotherapy, this tendency to react to others as if they are family
members is called “transference.” Sandy came to see me because
of her social isolation, her continuing overwork, and difficulties
with the few friendships she had left. She was raised by her divorced
mother, a professor of music at a community college. During
her childhood, Sandy’s mother was frequently physically abusive
toward both Sandy and her sister. They were blamed for their
mother’s disorganized, chaotic, and unsuccessful life. Their mother
frequently said that she could have been a world-famous performer
had she not been burdened with them. Sandy complained about her
intrusive and rejecting mother, yet as an adult her attachment remained
intense; she called home daily and she never missed Sunday
dinner with her mother, despite describing these family gatherings
as “dreadful.”
Sandy worked as an editor of screenplays and was financially
very successful. However, she was never satisfied with her success
and worked at a frenzied pace, constantly looking for a big
“break” that would make a name for her in the film industry—just
as her mother sought fame in the world of music. Not surprisingly,
Sandy was forced by her years of childhood rejection to use the
splitting defense in order to remain attached to her mother. This defense
became an integral part of her personality that remained into
adulthood. The automatic nature of the splitting defense caused her
to distort reality by seeing her friends either as extremely good or
extremely bad, views which would often change without warning
in an instant. This is the great paradox of defense mechanisms: they
protect us from crushing anxiety during our childhoods, but then
become an integral part of our personality that often damages us in
adulthood.Like many adults who use the splitting defense, Sandy had many
relationship problems because the moment she felt frustrated by a
friend, her wounded self would jump out of its hiding place in her
unconscious and she would “turn” against that person and forget
all the good aspects of the relationship. This is just like the child of
two who screams “I hate you mommy” just three minutes after
cuddling affectionately. Frustration wipes all the positive memories
out, and the child is completely caught in the emotions of the moment.
These severe shifts of perception and feelings were responsible
for many of the relationship breakups that Sandy described.
These relationship problems were not limited to male-female romances,
as her relationships with other women were filled with
strife and she repeatedly got into sudden and unexpected conflicts
with a constantly changing cast of friends.
During one session, Sandy described an incident in which she experienced
an upwelling of explosive anger toward her current best
friend who had “insulted” her sister. Her friend saw a picture of
Sandy’s sister in the company of a new male companion. The man
in the picture was much older than her sister and was dressed like
an underworld character. Her friend looked at the picture and exclaimed,
“Some catch, I hope he has plenty of money!” Sandy’s
sudden and extreme anger at this remark took her friend by surprise,
because they had often joked about the up-and-down romantic
life that Sandy’s sister led. Sandy had repeatedly and pointedly
made fun of her sister’s lifestyle in our sessions as well,
describing her as an exploiter of wealthy men who made her “romantic”
decisions based on how much money her various dates
were willing to spend. Sandy also felt appropriately slighted by the
fact that her sister still lived rent-free in the family home, and frequently
borrowed large sums of money from their mother without
paying it back. This view of her sister came from her wounded self
which had a large number of memories of her sister taking advantage
of Sandy’s good will as well.
I began to investigate what life event prompted Sandy to suddenly
switch from her wounded self back to her hopeful self’s view
of her sister. The answer appeared almost immediately. It was the
recent death of her father, a neglectful and completely disinterested
parent, who lived in a distant state and had little to do with either
of his daughters. The loss of an uninvolved parent should logically
have little or no effect on “adult” children; however, because Sandy
had never been emotionally supported as a child by either parent,
her father’s death crushed any remaining hopeful self fantasies she
had about him. The attachments to her family that she did have
were weak and supported by her unrealistic hopeful self, and the
loss of her father increased the need for even stronger fantasies of
attachment to her two remaining family members. Her father’s
passing caused her to strengthen her hopeful self’s fantasy that her
self-centered mother and exploitative sister constituted a good
“family,” and simultaneously she repressed her wounded self’s perceptions
completely.
Thus, the pressure from her father’s death provoked her hopeful
self to displace her wounded self, and this shift came as a complete
surprise to her friend. Her innocent friend had no idea that Sandy
was now in a completely different state of mind about her remaining
family, and Sandy’s harsh reaction astonished and angered her.
Sandy’s excessive anger was prompted by the fact that her friend’s
view threatened her now necessary fantasy that she had a close attachment
to her sister. Sandy’s aggressive response toward her
friend caused their relationship to cool dramatically and eventually
she lost the relationship.
The suddenness of the anger and its inexplicability often leaves
others confused and offended. Sandy felt absolutely justified in her
anger toward her friend since she could not remember the opposite
view of her sister, which was now repressed in her wounded self.
Sandy’s use of the splitting defense caused an endless series of “misunderstandings”
with friends, which left her without any alternative
except to remain attached to her dysfunctional mother and sister.
This example illustrates how severe defenses can imperil those
few outside relationships that the young adult has, which over time
leaves them with fewer and fewer alternative relationships to lean
upon. With no network of friendships to support them, and no stable
relationship with a partner, many individuals like Sandy continue
to lead exceedingly lonely and frustrating lives with only their
family to “count” on, a sad fate for many adults who already suffered
from destructive developmental histories."

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The truth which makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear. --Herbert Agar

flower-power spune:

Noi gandim despre noi insine ceea ce ni s-a spus prin timpul=iubire, afectiunea=aprobare, atentia=valoare, incurajarile, increderea care ni s-au acordat. Daca ai nostri nu ne-au dat ce ne-a trebuit, noi[copii] idealizandu-i, am considerat ca nu ei sunt in neregula ci noi trebuie sa fim, ca nu facem ceva suficient de bine, ca nu meritam... Asa s-a nascut vina si asta a tot fost insamantata in noi cat timp am asteptat /asteptam ca ai nostri sa se repare sau sa fim cumva razbunati. Asta nu ni se intampla in mod constient.

Eu cred ca nu se poate scapa de vina si implicit rusine, pana nu intelegi de unde vine. Are legatura cu ce am bolduit in mesajul anterior.
Iti recomand si eu ca si mihuta dealtfel, Leaving Home, a dat ea linkul cateva pagini in urma. Cred ca-ti va raspunde la cateva intrebari

Anda, si eu la fel, nu ma mai opresc din citit. Nu stiu cat de bine fac, daca ma ajuta sau mai mult imi pune piedica?

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The truth which makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear. --Herbert Agar

anda spune:

We live in a house of mirrors and think we are looking out the windows
~ Fritz Perls ~

nelia spune:

Imi pare rau ca nu sint singura, sincer! Si eu care ma credeam unicat la capitolul dezorganizare.

Tala, tocmai asta vreau si eu sa aflu si de aceea am spus ca am nevoie de ajutor. Vreau remediu! Pentru ca e obositor sa fii te impingi tot timpul pe marginea prapastiei, ca sa intri in criza si sa rezolvi. Nu stiu cit se vede din afara, cred ca foarte putin, dar eu stiu care e adevarul. Singurul loc unde am fost organizata fara eforturi a fost in cresterea copiilor, dar nu in aspectele legate de ordine, disciplina, ci de program, de ceea ce am de facut ca mama. Dar uite, ca teama mea este ca tot mama trebuie sa puna in ei si aceasta organizare si disciplina, pe care eu nu stiu sa le-o sadesc, pentru ca nu o am nici in mine. Nu stiu cit vine din copilarie, surorile mele nu sint asa... dar ele nici nu s-au simtit vreodata captive... cred, cel putin nu s-au exprimat, am incercat acum sa vorbesc cu ele si dau de un zid, eu sint cea care vad lucrurile asa. Deci problema mea nu mai e legata deloc de trecut, nu ma mai intereseaza de mult ce a fost acolo (mai putin in ceea ce-l privea pe tatal meu, dar acum s-a aranjat si asta), problema mea este prezentul si, de fapt, problema mea sint eu insumi si ceea ce nu reusesc sa fac cu usurinta ceea ce vad la altii ca reusesc. De ce? Sint inzestrata cu multe calitati, putere de munca am, vointa la fel, suflet mare si incapator, dornic de iubire si cu multa iubire de oferit, traume din trecut rezolvate... sint cit se poate de in regula ca sa pot sa-mi duc viata linistit, organizat, disciplinat si sa extind acest lucru asupra celor din jurul meu, asa cum fac cu alte lucruri (iubire, prietenie, incredere, optimism, caldura). Dar cind spun ca nu sint in stare sa nu va imaginati ca e doar asa, un pic, si cu un pic de vointa de poate rezolva... Nu! E grav, duc lucrurile pina la extrem, cu o delasare pe care sincer, de fiecare data, ma intreb de unde vine... fac altele in loc de ce trebuie, care bineinteles ca nu sint apreciate atit timp cit cele necesare nu sint facute... ce mai, dezastru! Ar fi atit de multe de scris aici!

Ana, tu spui ca e o sfera complicata, a relatiilor sociale, si raspunsul e in noi; eu nu-mi permit sa-mi izolez copilul si barbatul, altfel as fi fericita la marginea padurii... eu stau bine la nivelul relatiilor in general, adica golul il vad doar in momente de disperare, pentru ca altfel m-ar bate Dumnezeu sa ma pling ca nu am prieteni, ca nu sint inconjurata de oameni dragi, e fals... si cine ma stie, ar zice ca sint nebuna sa spun asa ceva cind in jurul meu sint numai oameni, cind am atitia prieteni buni, cind sint atit de sociabila, vorbareata etc. Si nici la marginea padurii nu m-as simti bine, mie imi place intre oameni, ii iubesc, am nevoie de ei... imi place ca ei sa aiba nevoie de mine, sa fiu acolo pentru ei. Si, totusi, asta este adevarul: sint mai singura decit par, iar gol in jurul meu exista de la un punct incolo... pentru ca nimeni nu mai poate fi alaturi de mine asa cum am eu nevoie. Si am nevoie, am disperata nevoie, dar imi dau seama ca, in afara de prietena mea, nu pot cere de la nimeni asa ceva, eu in mine nu gasesc resursele necesare sa-mi satisfac aceasta nevoie... si atunci ma simt singura si neinteleasa. Stiu, probabil ca si tu, ca si multi care ma cunosc, iti vine greu sa crezi asa ceva... dar asta e adevarul. Problema mare este si aici am nevoie de cineva din afara, ca si la capitolul organizare, este ca atunci cind ma simt asa, abia atunci iese din nou la iveala vina, a mea. La inceput dau vina pe altii, pentru ca eu ma simt in regula si simt ca am investit mult, dar in scurt timp ajung sa-mi pun tot eu cenusa in cap. Si ma iau la descusut, si vad ce pot face, si incep iar cu organizarea, cu prioritatile... pina ma intorc din nou in punctul in care nu ma mai simt din nou singura, ii simt din nou aproape. Si uite asa... de cind ma stiu. Nu ar fi cine stie ce, ca ma descurc, dar m-a luat asa o usoara teama... si cind nu voi mai avea destula forta in mine, si poate nici vointa in mine sa o fac, ce fac!?! Stiu ca problema e in noi, dar vreau sa stiu unde si ce se poate face inainte de a fi prea tirziu.

Adrianka, trista rau de tot povestea. A fost si aici un caz asemanator, copil uitat in masina, citeva ore, pe canicula. Eu nu pot sa judec, mi se rupe sufletul si pentru parinti, desi nici chiar asa... oricit de stresat ai fi. Dar de copilasi mi se rupe sufletul in doua. Dumnezeu sa-l odihneasca in pace, iar parintilor... forta sa traiasca mai departe, desi eu nu vad cum in aceasta situatie.

CORNELIA, mami de www.dropshots.com/nelia#date/2009-03-30/13:05:37" target="_blank">AGATA, TUDORA si LISANDRU

flower-power spune:

Da, anda, doar ca-i important sa stim de unde ni se trage, altfel vom inceta de a-i blama pe altii, ramanandu-ne sa ne autoinvinuim.

Si semnatura ta imi place tare, ca si citatul de mai sus

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The truth which makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear. --Herbert Agar

anda spune:

eu pina nu am inteles de unde vine n-am putut sa ma misc/gandesc. foarte adevarat. unii am observat ca nu au needul asta de a afla "de ce?" ci numai "cum scap?"...
pe mine m-au lamurit cartile, mai ales ce e cu iubire prea multa, noroc ca mai citisem din urma si am vazut ca "mutise" si conchita tot citind aceeasi carte. cumva am reusit sa vad mai mult decit ceea ce descrie carte...am vazut adictia la idei...nu neaparat la oameni.

si acum www.scribd.com/doc/22170686/Anthony-de-Mello-Constienta-Capcanele-Si-Sansele-Realitatii" target="_blank">ASTA pune o alta cireasa pe tort. la urma urmei constienta se invata. cu efort si exercitiu. dar trebuie sa vrei.

am vazut ceva legat de un .com?? un domeniu nou? ce se pune la cale?

columbiana spune:

Nelia, la mine a fost greu pina am inteles ca si eu, ca si Tudor, sunt diferita si vad diferit relatiile (dar intr-un total alt mod decit copilul), si m-am impacat cu gindul; eu sunt prietena cu acest gol si-l simt drept protectie, pina la o limita; scriam in mesajul ce l-am sters ca ma simt bine doar cind ofer si celalalt are nevoie, nu sunt capabila invers si chiar ma irita; imi tratez singura ranile intotdeauna si am o nevoie vitala de joc cinstit dupa criteriile mele, ceea ce in viata reala nu se intimpla pentru ca criteriile nu coincid si noi suntem extrem de diferiti; in felul asta singurul mediu securitar ramine casa-din care n-as iesi cu saptaminile sa pot-si familia restrinsa; acum insa merg pe gheata de o vreme incoace, pentru prima data, si sunt foarte stresata cu gindul la venirea mamei-care se asteapta ca intotdeauna sa fiu suportul de care se agata, si de data asta ma simt eu cea vulnerabila.
eu sunt extrem de organizata...in cap; acolo se cern exact prioritatile si telurile si le respect din inertie, dintotdeauna; acolo e important, si sunt importante lucrurile esentiale ce tin de familie, de jobul meu, de sanatatea noastra-si linistea mea-asta e foarte importanta; in rest, ordine in casa/lucruri, pur si simplu nu le consider prioritati si le ignor; noroc cu barbatu-meu

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