calauza si alte filme grele :)
Raspunsuri - Pagina 10
gandacelu spune:
quote:
Originally posted by lilanda
No' e clar ca fiecare avem conturata o idee despre filmul asta, da' pot sa pun pariu ca si asta se darima daca mai vedem o data filmul!!!
cam asa!
cat despre cutia "pandorei", io ma tot chinui s-o inchid... zau daca nu e reala!
pupic tuturor!
mara03 spune:
neata si pupici la toata lumea. vaz ca a revenit totul la normal si tare ma bucur!!!
Andreea & Tudor (9 dec. 2003)
daca doriti sa ne (re)vedeti :)
Kehleyr spune:
Vreau doar sa va spun ca v-am citit toate interpretarile si ca sunteti geniale . Eu zic ca daca le vede Lynch va ia ca ajutor de regizor la urmatorul lui film. In asemena 
de capete luminate eu ma multumesc sa fac pe spectatorul si sa ma delectez cu dezlantuirile imaginatiei, ca de contribuit nu prea am cu ce contribui 
.
mara mie imi place ideea cu cutiile, si cred ca analogia cu cutia Pandorei e evidenta 
O idee care a ramas inca neexplorata si mi se pare interesanta este a lui gandacelu, apropo de
quote:
asadar, "vinovatul" e adam (da da ce-l cheama adam)
poate Lynch a vrut sa spuna ca el este primul locuitor al lumii imaginate de el, si din "coasta" imaginatiei lui a nascut toate celelalte personaje??
lilanda spune:
Am gasit o interpretare (pe rottentomatoes) care mie mi se pare interesanta si care are contine toate ideile noastre, puse "cap la cap" cumva. (imi cer scuze ca este in engleza, dar daca puneam link...mergeam la alt forum :-))
"Simply, It is a morality play. It's lesson: "Be careful what you wish for because you just might get it."
It takes place in a surrealistic, "Twilight Zone" like alternative Hollywood, where 'Film Noir/American Night' perspectives on desire, fame, fate & the ugly face of the film machine intersects the lives of 5 individuals in it's neverending cycle of optimistic drive, attainment, & ultimate 'casting aside' of those nobodies who seek to be sombodies. Dream sequences may exist, but I don't really find creedence for them here.
Here's my overarching thesis: There is a Cabal of agents that design the "fate" of individuals who enter the 'star machine'. Their reasons are irrelevant. The 'why' isn't necessarily important. The point: No one can fathom the machine that is Hollowood.
They maintain the cycle that eats up talent & desire as soon as it is recognized, subverts it through fame & inevitably casts it aside to make room for the next starry eyed believer willing to walk into the web.
Picture if you will:
The Mob Brothers, The Cowboy, The Dirty Man, The HitMan, The Aunt, The Elderly Couple, Coco, The people in the casting scene & The Blue Haired Woman are all agents of "the Miget", who represents "Fate". He controls the machine. His agents enforce it when it goes off kilter.
****ing with him = rejection. Playing along = Success. On his terms.
If this doesn't = Hollywood, I don't know what does.
Betty, Rita, Diane, Camilla, Alex (director) all represent the phases of Hollywood success & what on the surface, drives it. Desire (sexually & careerwise), Hollow sucess, ultimate rejection & self destructive despair.
Kinda like tarot cards tossed onto a table randomly , only capable of being interpreted by fate.
The director goes along with the Hollywood machine & realizes success both personally & professionally. The remainder get run through the mill.
I contend the following: There is only room for 3. Betty, Rita, Diane, Camilla represent the various phases of the cycle. Achieving the Blue box & key, which represents "the prize" of attainment of success, shifts the perspectives. Rita (who was the 'Betty') becomes Camilla, Betty becomes Rita, Camilla becomes Diane @ her death. Diane dies the death of despair & rejection at her own hand. (Note that the body on the deathbed when it's first discovered in bungalow 17 is supposed to be Diane, but has the same tooth gap seen on Camilla in the "lip synch" scene & again when she's @ Denny's as the waitress with the "Betty" nametag. It's Camilla's POV we see in the opening segment when the head hits the pillow)
Each represents a stage in the birth, life & death of the Hollywood dream machine. They have all lived each other's roles, except for Betty, without knowing of their prior incarnation. As one succumbs to failure & demise, another fresh face is brought in to run through the cycle.
Think of the box & key as the apple in genesis. The attaiment of opening the box = both enlightenment & eventually being cast out of eden. The elderly couple both start & end the cycle. They are the minions of fate that encourage & then laugh at the naievete.
The movie revolves around this cycle I present, being broken by the car accident & the machinations of the agents of fate, & the purpose of the film is to get the cycle back on track.
I think we all know that Lynch throws 'red herrings' into the mix in order to confuse. I think that 4 of those scenes that people see as 'red herrings' are actually plot drivers that are being overlooked.
1. Q: Why the drawn out hilarious scene with the hitman?
A: The black book, containing the names of the next person to be draw into the cycle (Camilla Rhodes) has been inherited by the long haired agent, from a now deceased member of the cabal & the cabal needs it back in order to keep the cycle going.
2: Q: The "The woman is missing" scene. (The back of Baldamenti's head while talking into the phone)
A: Rita is the focus of this cycle. She is Camilla (the star), who is to be killed & escapes her fate due to the accident. Her amnesia prevents her from remembering this, but she does remember her next incarnation, that of her lover, Diane Selwyn. Fate is threatened by random confluence. The accident turns the balance. Notice that the driver of the limo in the opening scene who extends the barrel of the gun at her is Mike Pellagrino, the same actor who plays the hitman in the previously mentioned scene. Rita escapes her fate due to the accident & her amnesia. The opening of the Blue Box makes her Camilla again & because the cycle has been disrupted, bumps Betty out of her part of the rotation. She goes from 'wannabe'to 'dejected' without reaching the 'success' point in the rotation. Hence, the masturbation scene: Realizing that some aspect of attainment is better than nothing. (Notice that camera through her POV, focuses on the spot on the table where the key should be after she masturbates & before she hires the hitman, representing her desire to have the key, which represents both the attaiment of fame & demise of her predecessor in the cycle. This is the point where she attains avarice & seals her fate)
3. Q: The detectives find 'another blue key' in the wreckage of the limo on Mulholland. ( The object in the evidence bag)
A:The 'hit' was not completed, so the cycle can't go forward. Everybody scrambles to set things right. Betty has been brought into the cycle too soon &
4. Q: When Rita engages the key in the lock, why does Betty disappear?
A: Because at that point, they are aspects of the same entity in the cycle. Rita, the voluptious star with amnesia, Betty, the fresh faced starlet about to become Rita.
What I think backs this all up, and is admittedly a leap, is Club Silencio..
Suspend disbelief for a moment.
Who are the other people there in the audience?
Other people running their own cycle. Just like Betty, Rita, Camilla & Diana.
Hollywood is a neverending chain of links, each running their own cycle, intersecting at Club Silencio, whose faire is offering up false performance & reinforcing it's own false face. Smoke & Mirrors. Belief in talent, only to discover it's false.
The last line of the film "Silencio.."
Don't share with others the false face & grinding cycle you've seen in the film.
We need more warm bodies to throw on the fire.
There. Pick away"
---------------------
Adam poate fi si o replica la "Totul despre Eva" (film de referinta in istoria cinematografiei despre o actrita care calca pe cadavre ca sa cunosca faima si succesul). Nu degeaba se tot face referire la o groaza de filme in Mulholland Drive (inclusiv "Pulp Fiction" -adica faza in care ucigasul il lichideaza pe detinatorul faimosului carnet cu nr. de telefon)
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mara03 spune:
"poate Lynch a vrut sa spuna ca el este primul locuitor al lumii imaginate de el, si din "coasta" imaginatiei lui a nascut toate celelalte personaje??"
da, da, asa-i!
haideti si cu celelalte nelamuriri, ca io nu ma mai pot concentra la filmul asta...astept imbold de la voi!!!
Andreea & Tudor (9 dec. 2003)
daca doriti sa ne (re)vedeti :)
Kehleyr spune:
Mi-a mai venit o idee. Apropo de club Silencio.
1. Poate ca este locul unde actorii realizeaza faptul ca pana acum au jucat un rol. Aici ele ies din pielea personajelor pe care le interpreteaza si pentru prima oara, fac parte din public. Un fel de "pierdere a inocentei", de ridicare a valului realitatii (cortina = maya?? asta chiar e cam trasa de par...)
2. Iar tipa zice "silencio" pentru ca spectacolul incepe din nou... ciclic... iar fetele (si odata cu ele si noi) trecem din nou in perspectiva personajelor.
3. Filmul se incheie asa (cu silencio) pentru ca noi devenim din spectatorii filmului lui Lynch, actori/personaje in propria noastra viata, odata cu terminarea filmului. Si nu stim ca de fapt suntem doar niste personaje...
gandacelu spune:
quote:
Originally posted by Kehleyr
Mi-a mai venit o idee. Apropo de club Silencio.
1. Poate ca este locul unde actorii realizeaza faptul ca pana acum au jucat un rol. Aici ele ies din pielea personajelor pe care le interpreteaza si pentru prima oara, fac parte din public. Un fel de "pierdere a inocentei", de ridicare a valului realitatii (cortina = maya?? asta chiar e cam trasa de par...)
2. Iar tipa zice "silencio" pentru ca spectacolul incepe din nou... ciclic... iar fetele (si odata cu ele si noi) trecem din nou in perspectiva personajelor.
3. Filmul se incheie asa (cu silencio) pentru ca noi devenim din spectatorii filmului lui Lynch, actori/personaje in propria noastra viata, odata cu terminarea filmului. Si nu stim ca de fapt suntem doar niste personaje...
bravo, kehleyr f misto!
mai, haideti sa le punem si noi cap la cap sa vedem ce ies!
am citit si de pe rottentomatos si vreau sa va spun ca mi s-au facut iar varza, tocmai cand credeam ca le-am dat de cap
nu stiu de unde sa pornim ca sa facem o oarecare ordine... avem acum n interpretari fragmentate si nici una generala...
daca as avea filmul la indemana m-as incumeta eu... mara, lilanda, kehleyr, nu vreti sa faceti voi "ordine" in functie de "descoperirile" noastre?!
intodeauna e bine sa strangem laolalta toate datele, apoi de sus se vad solutii neasteptate!
ps: interesanta ipoteza cu all about eve - din pacate nu l-am vazut, dar legatura asta merita "tinuta", ca si cea cu "sunset bulevard"
gandacelu spune:
quote:
"Simply, It is a morality play. It's lesson: "Be careful what you wish for because you just might get it."
oki, deci mesajul este moral - suntem toti de acord cu asta?!
cat despre you just might get it mi se pare tras de par... de ce you just might get it?!
cam usurel cliseul... ce, betty a vrut sa moara?! (ca "mistretul" in calauza!
)quote:
It takes place in a surrealistic, "Twilight Zone" like alternative Hollywood, where 'Film Noir/American Night' perspectives on desire, fame, fate & the ugly face of the film machine intersects the lives of 5 individuals in it's neverending cycle of optimistic drive, attainment, & ultimate 'casting aside' of those nobodies who seek to be sombodies. Dream sequences may exist, but I don't really find creedence for them here.
perfect pentru o interpretare "de departe" a intentiilor generale ale regizorului...quote:
Here's my overarching thesis: There is a Cabal of agents that design the "fate" of individuals who enter the 'star machine'. Their reasons are irrelevant. The 'why' isn't necessarily important. The point: No one can fathom the machine that is Hollowood.
They maintain the cycle that eats up talent & desire as soon as it is recognized, subverts it through fame & inevitably casts it aside to make room for the next starry eyed believer willing to walk into the web.
Picture if you will:
The Mob Brothers, The Cowboy, The Dirty Man, The HitMan, The Aunt, The Elderly Couple, Coco, The people in the casting scene & The Blue Haired Woman are all agents of "the Miget", who represents "Fate". He controls the machine. His agents enforce it when it goes off kilter.
****ing with him = rejection. Playing along = Success. On his terms.
aici imi scapa ceva... nu e PREA exagerat? adica ideea o fi "pe acolo", dar... supraliciteaza totusi... care e corespondentul in "lumea reala" a showbizului?
quote:
If this doesn't = Hollywood, I don't know what does.
???????????????
quote:
Betty, Rita, Diane, Camilla, Alex (director) all represent the phases of Hollywood success & what on the surface, drives it. Desire (sexually & careerwise), Hollow sucess, ultimate rejection & self destructive despair.
oki, aici intram pe terenul lilandei
quote:
Kinda like tarot cards tossed onto a table randomly , only capable of being interpreted by fate.
asta chiar nu o vad lynchiana deloc... nu mi se pare genul "fatalist", ma insel??
mai degraba il vad pe lynch ca master of puppets... cam pe acolo mi se pare ca vrea sa bata, nu la hollywood ca viziune de ansamblu, ci la "arta/nebunia" de a face un film...
revin
Kehleyr spune:
quote:
If this doesn't = Hollywood, I don't know what does
If this doesn't equal Hollywood,...
adica e o descriere perfecta a masinariei de vise, si aici are dreptate...
Nu stiu daca putem identifica chiar arhetipuri in personajele alea... poate ele sunt doar proiectii ale unor indivizi reali cu care a avut Lynch de-a face pe parcursul carierei...
Cu partea cu tarotul nici eu nu sunt de acord... dar poate se leaga de "loteria" descrisa in cartea neagra?
quote:
mai degraba il vad pe lynch ca master of puppets... cam pe acolo mi se pare ca vrea sa bata, nu la hollywood ca viziune de ansamblu, ci la "arta/nebunia" de a face un film...
Poate sunt ambele. Eu nu cred ca exista o singura interpretare (gandacelule imi pare rau sa nu fiu de acord cu tine
) la acest film. Cred ca Lynch a vrut sa spuna multe lucruri in acelasi timp, si de aceea fiecare privitor percepe din punctul lui de vedere simbolurile...Apropo de facut ordine, ar trebui sa alegem cateva simboluri pe care sa vedem cum le interpretam -- asta in afara de viziunea globala. Ar fi: clubul, cutia albastra, cartea, cowboy-ul, cersetorul...
lilanda spune:
Mey...io tre' sa termin borsul de perisoare si acusi vin la "Stersul geamurilor"!!! Da' sa stiti ca ma gindesc numa' la Lynch in timp ce mestec in ciorba aia!!!
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